Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]

wow weezing's neutralizing gas is so cool it sure would suck if it instalost to the thing it's supposed to have a niche against lol
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Weezing-Galar: 360-426 (107.7 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
This isn't how it works. Geezing is niche, but nobody who actually uses it does so to take hits from Ghold with it. It's to bypass the Defog blocking ability so that it doesn't matter if Ghold switches into you as you Defog. This is the key thing about Ghold. In order to block removal, it needs to switch into you first.

While Defog isn't common as I said, having a surefire way to remove hazards on any Pokemon that can use it even if it's just Corv would still be better than right now. And sorry but who runs defog on Corv when Gholdengo is in the tier ?
I do since it's good. Many hazard stack teams don't even run Ghold because they can just keep hazards up with offensive pressure. For Corv specifically, you Defog against non-Ghold teams and U-Turn into your Ghold answer on the predicted switch against Ghold teams. You know, because Ghold has to switch into you to actually block Defog. You just can't be mindless about it like you were in gen 8. If Corv is your defogger, you cover for its weaknesses.

What I'm saying is that the mons you used are the ones that you run when you are using these kind of teams. If you want to play other playstyles you have to run HDB on everything because this metagame heavily favors Hazard Stack/Immune teams since Ceaseless Edge, HDB and Gholdengo exists.
I don't believe in HBD spam. Not a knock against folks who use it. But it's not nearly as mandatory as some claim it to be, particularly if you aren't playing stall. You can build team structures that are resistant to hazards without Boots and/or build better removal into a team concept. You can do the latter thing by using a primary remover and a secondary remover or anti-hazard option. Grassy Terrain can also be used to help with chip a little.
 
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What I'm saying is that the mons you used are the ones that you run when you are using these kind of teams. If you want to play other playstyles you have to run HDB on everything because this metagame heavily favors Hazard Stack/Immune teams since Ceaseless Edge, HDB and Gholdengo exists.

And I'm sorry but no, 1695 is not high ladder.
You can use any one of these mons on non HDB stack teams. It's not like you can't. Hatterene, Cinderace, Tusk, Treads and Corv are just to named a few. Sure, Ceaseless Edge goes through magic bounce, but you play around that by only letting it get up one spike. If hamurott is getting up 3 layers of spikes for free, and then still living, I'm sorry, but that's just you playing bad and not punishing it. Cinderace is a bit more nuanced, because you might not want to get hazards up first, but that can be played around. Tusk is one of the best mons in the tier, and can threaten ghold. It can also knock off HDB, so yeah. I personally knock off first turn to pop the balloon on ghold (if they have one), and now they can't switch in. Treads is similar, knock if they have ghold, then spinning is easier. Corv is more difficult, but its not like ghold is on every team. It's at an alltime low at number 5 in usage. Still used a lot, but not as much.
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Still used a lot. Don't see how this made a difference.
 
I do since it's good. Many hazard stack teams don't even run Ghold because they can just keep hazards up with offensive pressure. For Corv specifically, you Defog against non-Ghold teams and U-Turn into your Ghold answer on the predicted switch against Ghold teams. You know, because Ghold has to switch into you to actually block Defog. You just can't be mindless about it like you were in gen 8. If Corv is your defogger, you cover for its weaknesses.



I don't believe in HBD spam. Not a knock against folks who use it. But it's not nearly as mandatory as some claim it to be, particularly if you aren't playing stall. You can build team structures that are resistant to hazards without Boots and/or build better removal into a team concept. You can do the latter thing by using a primary remover and a secondary remover or anti-hazard option. Grassy Terrain can also be used to help with chip a little.
You are right about Corv, maybe I'm just too scared to run Defog when Gholdengo exists. But apart from it and Tusk, hazard removal is still problematic as far as I'm concerned and I feel like it's really not comfortable for me to play without HDB spam in the current metagame. Maybe that's a me problem but I really find this metagame restrictive in what you can or cannot use.

You can use any one of these mons on non HDB stack teams. It's not like you can't. Hatterene, Cinderace, Tusk, Treads and Corv are just to named a few. Sure, Ceaseless Edge goes through magic bounce, but you play around that by only letting it get up one spike. If hamurott is getting up 3 layers of spikes for free, and then still living, I'm sorry, but that's just you playing bad and not punishing it. Cinderace is a bit more nuanced, because you might not want to get hazards up first, but that can be played around. Tusk is one of the best mons in the tier, and can threaten ghold. It can also knock off HDB, so yeah. I personally knock off first turn to pop the balloon on ghold (if they have one), and now they can't switch in. Treads is similar, knock if they have ghold, then spinning is easier. Corv is more difficult, but its not like ghold is on every team. It's at an alltime low at number 5 in usage. Still used a lot, but not as much.
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Still used a lot. Don't see how this made a difference.
I never said I let H-Samurott set up 3 spikes, if I did I would just be bad. Even 1 spikes is 12% on everything that switches and don't run HDB, which is a lot and makes Hatterene useless against it. Court Change is useless against the teams I'm talking about since they are immune to hazards to begin with. You switch hazards and then what ? They are still immune to it and unless you run HO to pressure them enough they will be able to put more hazards on the field again.

Maybe you have not noticed but I didn't even used Gholdengo as an example on the HDB spam team I mentionned. The only reason Gholdengo is mentionned is because it makes running Defog a risk just by existing. I admit Corviknight uses it more than I thought but I wouldn't want to run Defog in metagame where Gholdengo is top 5 usage. And yes Great Tusk is top tier and you run it for Gambit to begin with but it still doesn't change the fact that Hazard Spam/Immune teams are rampant. Imo, you are at a disadvantage if you are not running them currently now feel free to disagree.
 
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I never said I let H-Samurott set up 3 spikes, if I did I would just be bad. Even 1 spikes is 12% on everything that switches and don't run HDB, which is a lot and makes Hatterene useless against it. Court Change is useless against the teams I'm talking about since they are immune to hazards to begin with. You switch hazards and then what ? They are still immune to hit and unless you run HO to pressure them enough they will be able to put more hazards on the field again.

Maybe you have not noticed but I didn't even used Gholdengo as an example on the HDB spam team I mentionned. The only reason Gholdengo is mentionned is because it makes running Defog a risk just by existing. I admit Corviknight uses it more than I thought but I wouldn't want to run Defog in metagame where Gholdengo is top 5 usage. And yes Great Tusk is top tier and you run it for Gambit to begin with but it still doesn't change the fact that Hazard Spam/Immune teams are rampant and you are at a disadvantage if you are not running them currently.
If in any tier, if one spike ruins your whole team, then that's a team building issue. Multiple teams can just ignore that before considering HDB. There's a reason superman teams are still used after all these years, not just in SV. Sure, Hatterene doesn't work against Hamurott, but thats a mon that is 10% usage, so hatterene is still good against the majority of hazard users. Even then, Hamurott can be pressured by a lot of things, water+dark isn't a bad defensive typing, but rilla, tusk, zama, meow and even u-turn mons threaten it. Court change is meant to remove them from your side and put them on the opposing side, and then you try to abuse them by using knock off. If your team doesn't have knock off, then you aren't using some of the best mons in the tier. It's a temporary measure that deinsenstives hazard stack, though of course that is a little less effective against those teams.
Again, ghold needs to come in on defog, and corv has u-turn. You u-turn, break the air balloon, which is big, and then bring in a mon that can threaten it, which are many. It's not as much of a risk as you make it out to be, and if they don't have ghold, freest removal of all time.
Saying that hazard spam/immune teams are rampant I think is wrong, you are absolutely not at a disadvantage to not run them. Are they great? Yes. But if you can't punish them, then that's something that your team needs work on. Again, knock off is a fantastic tool against these teams. Tusk in itself absolutely makes the difference, it can removed HDB and get off hazards.
 
If in any tier, if one spike ruins your whole team, then that's a team building issue. Multiple teams can just ignore that before considering HDB. There's a reason superman teams are still used after all these years, not just in SV. Sure, Hatterene doesn't work against Hamurott, but thats a mon that is 10% usage, so hatterene is still good against the majority of hazard users. Even then, Hamurott can be pressured by a lot of things, water+dark isn't a bad defensive typing, but rilla, tusk, zama, meow and even u-turn mons threaten it. Court change is meant to remove them from your side and put them on the opposing side, and then you try to abuse them by using knock off. If your team doesn't have knock off, then you aren't using some of the best mons in the tier. It's a temporary measure that deinsenstives hazard stack, though of course that is a little less effective against those teams.
Again, ghold needs to come in on defog, and corv has u-turn. You u-turn, break the air balloon, which is big, and then bring in a mon that can threaten it, which are many. It's not as much of a risk as you make it out to be, and if they don't have ghold, freest removal of all time.
Saying that hazard spam/immune teams are rampant I think is wrong, you are absolutely not at a disadvantage to not run them. Are they great? Yes. But if you can't punish them, then that's something that your team needs work on. Again, knock off is a fantastic tool against these teams. Tusk in itself absolutely makes the difference, it can removed HDB and get off hazards.
You can try to attack my teambuilding skill without knowing what I actually use and struggle against and make assumptions all you want but I never said that I consistently lose to the HDB Hazard Stack team I mentionned nor did I say that one spikes ruined my gameplan. I just find these kind of teams boring to play against, that they plague the ladder and make the metagame restrictive.
Feel free to have fun running Zen Headbutt Roaring Moon in your 1695 high ladder if you want, discussion's over.
 
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You can try to attack my teambuilding skill without knowing what I actually use and struggle against and make assumptions all you want but I never said that I consistently lose to the HDB Hazard Stack team I mentionned nor did I say that one spikes ruined my gameplan. I just find these kind of teams boring to play against, that they plague the ladder and make the metagame restrictive.
Feel free to have fun running Zen Headbutt Roaring Moon in your 1695 high ladder if you want, discussion's over.
I don't know your teambuilding, but when you say something like 12% on everything that switches in due to it getting up one spike is a lot, that calls into question what your teambuilding is like if that's such a huge issue. Sure, is one spike good, yes, but it shouldn't determine a game.
It's different if you find facing these teams boring, that's your opinion and you're privy to that, but to say that they are ruining the tier is different. If you can't have discussion and clarify things, because I said something that is fair teambuilding advice, then that's on you. When you don't clarify things, of course I'm going to question what you are saying. I simply believed you struggled against HDB Hazard stack because you complained about it.
Oh, and jokes on you, I'm a 1500s player. :D
 
You are right about Corv, maybe I'm just too scared to run Defog when Gholdengo exists. But apart from it and Tusk, hazard removal is still problematic as far as I'm concerned and I feel like it's really not comfortable for me to play without HDB spam in the current metagame. Maybe that's a me problem but I really find this metagame restrictive in what you can or cannot use.



I never said I let H-Samurott set up 3 spikes, if I did I would just be bad. Even 1 spikes is 12% on everything that switches and don't run HDB, which is a lot and makes Hatterene useless against it. Court Change is useless against the teams I'm talking about since they are immune to hazards to begin with. You switch hazards and then what ? They are still immune to it and unless you run HO to pressure them enough they will be able to put more hazards on the field again.

Maybe you have not noticed but I didn't even used Gholdengo as an example on the HDB spam team I mentionned. The only reason Gholdengo is mentionned is because it makes running Defog a risk just by existing. I admit Corviknight uses it more than I thought but I wouldn't want to run Defog in metagame where Gholdengo is top 5 usage. And yes Great Tusk is top tier and you run it for Gambit to begin with but it still doesn't change the fact that Hazard Spam/Immune teams are rampant. Imo, you are at a disadvantage if you are not running them currently now feel free to disagree.
I used to agree and post really strongly about this. One thing that changed my mind was exploring offense a bit more over balance which is really all i ever played. We've never been so spoilt for choice with fire-power, so while hazard stack is annoying, substitute, Encore, various setup pokemon, sun teams and various specs/ band pokemon take advantage of those pokemon and obliterate the boots spam teams.

If you aren't relying on hazards yourself then boots spam teams are effectively itemless.

Thats why at the moment I'm preferring rocks on landorus or banded ceaseless edge rather than a dedicated hazard pokemon like Ting Lu or glimmora since those pokemon can give you a lot of value outside hazard stack depending on your matchup. For the first time in a while I feel pretty free to try all sorts of sets and perform well with them.

If you're having trouble breaking boots regen cores then maybe try lefties substitute kyurem? Freeze dry and earth power cause problems for those cores and pressure+ sub is problematic for them. here is a replay if you are interested https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2095021437
 
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Imo, you are at a disadvantage if you are not running them currently now feel free to disagree
Maybe try a strong knock user that forces switches like meow. It can remove items and is employed on hazard spam teams (which proves it works lol.)
Moon does well into Corv anyway just with tera flying and taunt. Although Brave Bird does a ton regardless. Balloon is extremely common on Gambit as well as tera flying/dark/fighting. Also you're running what dd/sub/eq/knock?? This seems like a straight downgrade from the standard one
Losing acro does suck for moon, which leaves it walled by tusk, and sub is basically worse taunt against stall. I agree with you on this one. I also don’t think moon is ban worthy. It’s still dangerous though since its common sets are still dangerous. It can easily break stall with enough chip on bozo with taunt and Tera flying acro, which leaves kingambit free to wreak havoc (both synergize with each other and are staples of HO). It even OHKOes defensive tusk with tera flying acro unboosted which is very good.
Not running Acro on moon is a horrible decision. A free 110 BP coverage move for running his best item? So free. I am a SD speed BE Acro Dragon Move and Dark Move. Reminder that it has a move that flies under the radar, Jaw Lock. If you can use it against a favorable MU, you can get free SDs whil it just stays there.
Shouldn't you be running dd acro knock taunt/Eq as your set.
Tusk also drops its defenses when it headlong rushes
Defensive variants, which are the ones that wall moon the most, run EQ.
 
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658Greninja

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RKOtaku, I respect you as both a builder and a player, but I disagree with your view on hazard stacking. I don’t think hazards are actually oppressive. While hazard removal is limited to a few options, the ones we do have are at least good at their job with Tusk being far away the best option without question. Corv shits on any hazard stacking balance lacking Ghold. Builds with Ghold can be punished with a U-Turn into AV Hoopa, Heatran, Samu, Boots Rai, or any breaker that threatens Ghold’s livelihood. Cinderace is good on BO builds and even Balance with Tusk to remove hazards from more aggressive builds, most notably Webs. Treads and Glimm are options on HO or even BO that cteam Webs due to their ability to 1v1 Ribombee. There’s niche options like Drill on Sand and Neutralizing Gas G-Weezing. Yes G-Weezing ironically loses to Ghold 1v1, but you already removed the team’s progress and you’re free to swap into a check (Volc, Ting-Lu, Tera Water Garg).

BO builds don’t often run Tusk and/or Cinder, because they’re aggressive enough to pressure Spike setters or end the game before Spike Stacking can initiate their gameplan. Even Balance is fine with running Tusk and Corv, as that style of Fat has gotten more popular.

I actually find hazard stacking harder to execute because they risk losing momentum just to set spikes and preserving them vs Tusk is difficult when it threatens every Spiker minus Skarm who gets shit on by everything else and threatens every common spinblocker with huge damage or die to Knock.

What about Samu? While I think Samu is great rn and the best offensive Spiker in the tier by far, I find it awkward to fit at times, mostly cause of its competition with Wogre and the fact it overlaps with Gambit’s weaknesses when paired. The unblockable spikes are balanced by the fact Samu is slow and frail, even with its ability to check Gambit/Ghold.

I could tell you from experience that I’ve gotten success with BO builds that lack hazard removal, but output enough pressure vs Boots Spam Balance.
Moon invalidates Psychic Terrain. This was a borderline style anyways, but still. It invalidates certain balance structures that might otherwise be viable. It has a heavy grip on speed tiers. It can be a sweeper and a wallbreaker.

I also reject the idea that Moon only invalidates poorly built teams in a threat saturated meta where you cannot actually account for all the threats in the builder. No, Moon rejects poorly built teams AND certain ways of building that would be completely viable without it in the tier. Same for several of the borderline threats, honestly. Get good and adapt has a limit with threat saturation.

If you want the tier to adapt to Moon, you have to take from elsewhere. Diversity becomes lower. Someone just awhile ago talked about how they need to use like the same 3 balance structures or it doesn't work. Sure, there has been some innovation. But there are obviously limits to this while power creep and threat saturation are this high.
Psyspam was already on its way out without Moon’s involvement. Between Rillaboom, Darts Pult, Samu, Ting-Lu, Tera Dark Unaware Clod, etc, there wasn’t anyway that Psyspam can flourish. You need to play it perfectly.

I don’t know what Balance structures Moon invalidates exactly. Having to rely on one mon as your physical wall (especially if its Skarm) is not ideal in this meta and its not because of Moon, its because there are often 2-3 physical attackers on a team that can overwhelm that one bulky wall on the team. Running 2 physical walls like Mola + Corv or Dozo + Tusk or Impish Garg + Gliscor is fine enough, most modern Balances are gravitating towards that anyways.

Balance actually has an easier time vs Moon than you might realize.

-Barb Clef shits on Moon and most physical Booster users in general.

-Any physically defensive pivot (Mola/Gliscor/Corv/Lando) + Weavile can handle Moon. Gambit over Weavile is also an option since the latter three can force a Tera)

-With 252HP/128Dfse, Zapdos can actually take a +1 Knock and T-Wave it.

+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Zapdos: 322-379 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Physically Bulky or Mixed Tera Fairy Garg is an option that can 1v1 Moon with Salt Cure + Recover/Protect.

-Dozo beats non-Taunt Moon with Curse.

-You could try your hand with Itemless Skarm which can actually check Moon. Considering Skarm is itemless 95% of the time cause its always eating Knock, I think this is fine, arguably better than the standard.
 
Not running Acro on moon is a horrible decision. A free 110 BP coverage move for running his best item? So free. I am a SD speed BE Acro Dragon Move and Dark Move. Reminder that it has a move that flies under the radar, Jaw Lock. If you can use it against a favorable MU, you can get free SDs whil it just stays there.
 
The screwy thing about the Hazard Dynamic for me is that one of the most viable mons on BOTH sides of the equations (throwing up hazards and Supermanning above them) is Gliscor, who also is a major Knock Off user for the tier. It's like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors against a hand that throws all 3 at the same time in that regard.

What makes this funny to me is that I can't figure out speculatively if Gliscor is thus a positive or negative for the meta: The teams it fits best on are Stall or Fat Balance since it's disruptive but not very offensive like Hamurott; simultaneously the teams it removes Boots from already have to play a long game that considers dealing with unblocked Hazards or wants to stop them from going up repeatedly while Gliscor can't threaten them back any more immediately. The teams most concerned with Knock Off removal would be the teams Gliscor already fits on with mons like itself and Clefable that ignore Hazards anyway to deal with it.

On Gholdengo I'm also going to say, I just think the mon's concept is a cheesy and unfair one, but realistically its removal isn't going to solve the Hazard issue. Help with it for sure, but Gholdengo's run less as a Spinblocker and more because it's a stupidly versatile mon that discourages a lot of our already-limited removal without doing anything. The hazard dynamic, like many discontents with SV balance, is a lot of factors blending together into an incoherent stew that's hard to separate the ingredients of as a specific culprit rather than reasonable factors that don't get.
 
Deoxys speed came back to ou?
Weird, i thought you people said that glimmora was the better choice.

What changed?

I don't see how the bans had anything to do with deoxys.
 
Banning Booster Energy has even less support than an outright ban of Tera, which should say it all regarding the feasibility of banning it to save the metagame.

Only an extremely small portion of the playerbase even remotely considers it an issue with it mostly being those who don't main OU who bring up Booster Energy.

The best course of action is to ban more mons broken by Tera since we're past the point at which Tera can be banned with the appetite from the playerbase just not being there.

Maybe something like Volcarona or Roaring Moon will eventually emerge to be a serious problem and get the votes to be banned, but now is not that time.
i don't agree with what bold school had to say about booster energy but "no one supports it" is just such a lazy way to dismiss a player bringing up issues with the tier, especially when it's used regarding Tera, given the only reason "people don't support" action against Tera is because the survey changed the phrasing of the question from "do you support tiering action on Tera" to "do you believe Tera NEEDS to be banned" and all the sudden numbers went from 55-59% all the way down to 25-30%, despite council members and high level players alike being critical of Tera's presence in the tier and the dynamic it brings - because of the leading questions that pro-Tera tier leadership asks in the surveys, it's been "taken off the table" due to a so-called "lack of interest" (btw if any Pokémon was the subject of a "does x NEED to be banned" survey question, even if broken, that wouldn't get 60% or whatever you're looking for before there is even a suspect) so overall this is very lazy hand waving logic that doesn't address BE's place in the meta at all unlike Greninja and Moyashi's comments
 

j0nathan

formerly trainer_j0nathan
Deoxys speed came back to ou?
Weird, i thought you people said that glimmora was the better choice.

What changed?

I don't see how the bans had anything to do with deoxys.
People started to use it in a more offensive way, mostly with Life Orb. Deoxys Speed is pretty speedy (haha) and can dish out huge damage with it's coverage (Ice Beam, Knock Off, Focus Blast etc.) and Psycho Boost. It can even Set-Up with Nasty Plot.
Sash Deo-S is also a pretty consistent Screens Setter.
 
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i don't agree with what bold school had to say about booster energy but "no one supports it" is just such a lazy way to dismiss a player bringing up issues with the tier, especially when it's used regarding Tera, given the only reason "people don't support" action against Tera is because the survey changed the phrasing of the question from "do you support tiering action on Tera" to "do you believe Tera NEEDS to be banned" and all the sudden numbers went from 55-59% all the way down to 25-30%, despite council members and high level players alike being critical of Tera's presence in the tier and the dynamic it brings - because of the leading questions that pro-Tera tier leadership asks in the surveys, it's been "taken off the table" due to a so-called "lack of interest" (btw if any Pokémon was the subject of a "does x NEED to be banned" survey question, even if broken, that wouldn't get 60% or whatever you're looking for before there is even a suspect) so overall this is very lazy hand waving logic that doesn't address BE's place in the meta at all unlike Greninja and Moyashi's comments
This isn't true btw, the two most recent surveys include BOTH questions.

Terastallization

This was split up into two questions, so let's examine both individually.

Do you feel that any tiering action at all (ban or restriction) is needed on the topic of Terastallization?
  • Qualified: 72 said Yes, 82 said No -- 46.8% support for tiering action on Terastallization
  • General: 518 said Yes, 475 said No -- 52.2% support for tiering action on Terastallization
Do you feel that an outright ban of Terastallization is needed in SV OU?
  • Qualified: 39 said Yes, 115 said No -- 25.3% support for an outright ban of Terastallization
  • General: 275 said Yes, 718 said No -- 27.7% support of an outright ban of Terastallization
Terastallization

This was split up into two questions, so let's examine both individually.

Do you feel that any tiering action at all (ban or restriction) is needed on the topic of Terastallization?
  • Qualified: 51 said Yes, 59 said No -- 46.4% support for tiering action on Terastallization
  • General: 518 said Yes, 447 said No -- 53.7% support for tiering action on Terastallization
Do you feel that an outright ban of Terastallization is needed in SV OU?
  • Qualified: 31 said Yes, 79 said No -- 28.2% support for an outright ban of Terastallization
  • General: 273 said Yes, 692 said No -- 28.3% support of an outright ban of Terastallization
Speaking personally: I find an outright ban on Terastallization quite unlikely given these numbers, which are close to a repeat of last time. We will continue to monitor this topic and include Tera on future surveys if deemed appropriate.
Qualified responses failed to reach a majority on whether Tera should be restricted both times.
 
This isn't true btw, the two most recent surveys include BOTH questions.

Qualified responses failed to reach a majority on whether Tera should be restricted both times.
shh, don't ruin the "council is part of le evil pro-tera conspiracy" narrative with the truth
(btw if any Pokémon was the subject of a "does x NEED to be banned" survey question, even if broken, that wouldn't get 60% or whatever you're looking for before there is even a suspect)
this is an absolute bonkers in yonkers take right here. any pokemon? you're telling me that if we'd had a survey on week 2 where one of the questions was "should we ban flutter mane, yes or no", it wouldn't reach a 60% "yes" vote? you're saying bax wouldn't reach 60% in dlc1? or terapagos at the beginning of dlc2? you think that little of the community?
 
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That's actually a bad set. Not trying to start an argument. I'm telling you this because I initially made this mistake. Due to the large difference in base stats, you can't run something like BE defense on Bolt without purposefully lowering your special attack. Otherwise, BE will give you a different boost like Special Attack since it will be the largest stat. But compromising on special attack on Raging Bolt is generally a very bad idea. Other BE can run into similar issues, so you need to be careful what stats you are compromising to get the Boosts you want.

What you want to do is run something like Grassy Seed Raging Bolt so that you can run Body Press with the defense boost without sacrificing special attack. It's a very potent set that allows you to be sort of a mix attacker in a way with Body Press and Thunderclap priority.



No, but it's worth noting that the special defense stat is much higher. I primarily have run Assault Vest Hoopa-U and it was very strong. I don't know if the bonus multiplier for a lacking defense stat would be as good, particularly as just a one time use. AV can come in multiple times and still have the same defensive utility. You also have a major U-Turn weakness, making coming in on many physical attackers more suspect in the first place.

I have tried running Grassy Seed on other mons and it tends to be strong or at least decent. Hoopa-U seems to have a lot more issues with this concept, but I don't know what the original vision for it was.
How would you EV it?
 
People started to use it in a more offensive way, mostly with Life Orb. Deoxys Speed is pretty speedy (haha) and can dish out huge damage with it's coverage (Ice Beam, Knock Off, Focus Blast etc.) and Psycho Boost. It can even Set-Up with Nasty Plot.
Sash Deo-S is also a pretty consistent Screens Setter.
Okay thanks.

Just a question, how does deoxys speed compare with dragapult?

Is there a chance dragapult will drop in the future?

They are both fast shield setters that can be all out offensive.

Dragapult does not have special set up moves and can't set up hazards.
Shouldn't it be outclassed by deoxys speed?
 

DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
Okay thanks.

Just a question, how does deoxys speed compare with dragapult?

Is there a chance dragapult will drop in the future?

They are both fast shield setters that can be all out offensive.

Dragapult does not have special set up moves and can't set up hazards.
Shouldn't it be outclassed by deoxys speed?
At the role of screen setting and setting up hazards, yes. Offensively Dragapult outclasses it
 
Okay thanks.

Just a question, how does deoxys speed compare with dragapult?

Is there a chance dragapult will drop in the future?

They are both fast shield setters that can be all out offensive.

Dragapult does not have special set up moves and can't set up hazards.
Shouldn't it be outclassed by deoxys speed?
Dragapult is better than Deo-S defensively (better bulk and slightly better defensive typing) and can spinblock. Dragapult is also far better offensively as it has reliable stab options in hex+status/shadow ball and draco meteor/dragon darts. Psycho boost hits hard, but it has the problem of being completely shut down by the reliable darks in the tier (kingambit, ting-lu) as well as the steels (corv, crown, dengo, etc.) It's also hard to justify running an item such as specs on Deo-S as it much prefers the flexibility of life orb or the extra longevity from sash, whereas a specs Deo-S set would be extremely prediction reliant. Right now, it has the problem of getting outsped by many +1 mons, either from booster energy or scarf, but it's hard to justify running scarf as you're taking up your very valuable item slot to outspeed a few very specific things. Dragapult does not have this problem becuase Ghost is a very spammable type and the dragon coverage can hit anything outside of kingambit for at least neutral damage. Deoxys speed is a great hazard lead, but gets outclassed offensively. Screens are also quite niche, and when they are in the meta, it's often because of an incredibly potent ice sweeper that likes having veil up, meaning A-tales will be the preferred screen setter (such as baxcalibur).
 

658Greninja

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Okay thanks.

Just a question, how does deoxys speed compare with dragapult?

Is there a chance dragapult will drop in the future?

They are both fast shield setters that can be all out offensive.

Dragapult does not have special set up moves and can't set up hazards.
Shouldn't it be outclassed by deoxys speed?
Dragapult has dual status, a better offensive/defensive typing, has U-Turn, can spinblock, not reliant on LO to wallbreak so better longevity, and Pult can go full-physically offensive with CB unlike Deo-S.
 
+1 252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 132-156 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mhh, no. You would realistically have one dd up since you have a sub up, so tusk does have to be careful about it's health. Drop to 60% or lower, and its dead.
Anyways, just got back home, so I'll post the sets I was talking about.
https://pokepast.es/45d6eddf541fdd11
I'll explain each in detail.
Bulky lefties set
This set abuses the fact that moon has pretty good defenses, and with just a + speed nature, can naturally outspeed tusk. The combo of dark+fighting+ground is only resisted by enam. It can even take two tusk ice spinners. While it doesn't do much damage to start, it can get boosted super easily. I chose tera fairy because that is a good defensive type.
Grassy Seed set
The only set I have actually used, so I can say this is pretty good. It abuses the defense boost from grassy seed to get dd boosts, while recovering hp. Roost allows it to continuoly do this.
Assault vest set
This is a set that abuses the bulk of moon. The speed evs are to outspeed kyurem, while the hp and special defense evs means it can take a +2 volcarona tera blast dragon (though I think it might have been for something else). Rest is dumped into attack. Tera water is a good defensive typing and means it can wall lots of things (It can easily take a specs kyurem ice beam and +2 darkrai ice beam).
Sub lefties set
This set is a that can sub up and start boosting. The evs are to live as many physical hits as possible, while with tera bug you can be pretty good against fighting type moves.
Sub ghost set
Abuses the fact that fighting type moves are usually used against moon. The combo of dark+fighting is pretty good, though e-quake is something that could be put in. Destroys the metal birds and can play around gambit.
Snowball set
A gimmicky set, but it plays off the fact that weavile ice shard is used to revenge kill it. By using tera water, you resist the hit and get an attack boost, meaning acrobatics is superpowered.
Tera blast grass set
Destroys both dozo and tusk, who can't take its attacks. This means that lots of mons that may have been good against it are now prey for it.
Trapping set
This is a gimmick, straight up. Uses fire spin to trap opponents. Tera fire allows it to have a nice defensive typing. 104+ allows it to outspeed volc, most are dumped into bulk and some into attack to finish the opponent off.
HDB set
This is basically the booster energy set, but instead it utilises the multiple opportunities it gets to come in and threaten a sweep. I went with tera ground to make e-quake a lot better. Destroys teams that think they can scout which of e-quake or taunt it has and then wall it.
Breaking swipe set
Basically Gouging 2.0. Outspeeds Dragapult at +1, while also being able to take a +2 tera water ivy cudgel. Is better in some regards because it can outspeed more things, but worse in some since it doesn't have as much power.
Roseli Berry set
A bit of a gimmick, but this set can use fairy types as setup. Can take a valiant moonblast from full. Then it can start sweeping. Tera steel means it can switch into fairy types even if the roseli berry is knocked off.
Zen headbutt Choice band set
Uses zen headbutt to deal with tusk, which is 2hit ko'd. Tera bug u-turn is also really powerful.
I admire your creativity but I think you're too caught up in damage calcs and theoreticals. Like if we're going at it like this then almost every mon is versatile or unexplored. What matters is if the sets are actually consistent compared to what it normally uses. That's why I brought up Val as an example because it has a million different sets that are all strong. If Moon had common varied sets almost as powerful as tera flying acro guy then I could see your argument. It just doesn't, nothing else other than this set is discussed when people complain about Moon. And almost nothing else other than this set sees usage or results.

Dark/Fight is good coverage but not when you're relying on a 75 BP non stab move. A 3hko versus uninvested Tusk with +1 attack and a proto boost is genuinely terrible. Tusk bodies you back, you literally die to headlong after Tusk breaks sub. You could beat Gambit with this but brick break has some usage on the standard set so it's very possible they'll tera. And you're not threatening much else even if you beat Gambit. I'll also point out this set loses to brave bird Corv anyway which is extremely common and increasingly more so for Ogerpon. You need multiple turns of free set up for this to be remotely threatening. Any sweeper can be scary if that's the case. Tera flying booster acro is amazing because it's so strong immediately. Doesn't need to dd to blow up shit like Tusk and can still kill without tera at +1.
You're not threatening Tusk back much even if you can live 2 ice spinners. Tusk can just bulk up in your face or kill you with 2 headlongs. Moon's not tanky enough to sit there and boost all day. If you want a bulky dd mon Dragonite is way better at this, also a lot scarier to play against than acro guy in my opinion.
Grassy seed is okay but you need Rillaboom for this to work obviously so its pretty telegraphed. Also tells the opponent you're probably not running EQ as coverage. Gterrain in general is only decent right now and Hawlucha is better at this. This is also basically the same set just slightly worse but roost has a niche sometimes and some other tera types can too I guess.
AV is a neat idea but doesn't really work. You're relying completely on a surprise tera water to not get blown up by these guys. Having to burn tera on a mon you're using to tank hits and trade is bad when it has no longevity. Plus they'll still chunk you significantly even with it.
This has the same problems as your other bulky set but now you're relying too much on knock to do damage. Sub boosting 2 attack sets are better on stuff like Boulder because you have stab edgequake with tera ground so you can still hit things.
Snowball is objectively bad even as a gimmick when booster energy exists and is 100x more consistent even if very slightly weaker.
Literally every sweeper can pack a random tera blast to surprise something, this isn't unique to Moon. If you don't face Dondozo you have a useless moveslot and this can still lose to some Dozo sets. Tusk gets wrecked by the normal set anyway so this isn't very useful.
What does fire spin even trap? Match up moth can still shit on you. You said it's a gimmick but this is super unviable. Moon is no Volcanion or Heatran.
HDB one isn't bad, just not good. More opportunities to come in I guess but you're way less threatening when you do. Moon really needs the flying coverage and stab to be scary. Ogerpon can beat this whereas Moon would normally destroy it.
Breaking swipe is super situational and requires a lot of support to work. And unlike Gouging's set you're walled by the metal birds. Blim has used something similar but he can also beat people on high ladder with NU mons. Still it's okay.
Even with the berry, moonblast from Val or Prim is still likely to kill if there's any amount of shit on the floor. Val can still blow you up with CC too without dying to acro unless the berry is consumed. You're nerfing acro significantly if you don't get hit by moonblast or knock. Like you said very gimmicky.
Choice band Moon is good on sun but again super telegraphed. Sun really took a huge nerf after Torkoal lost yawn. I'd also rather have dual stab and a better tera. U-turn is for pivoting and there are better ways of handling Tusk than locking yourself into zen headbutt. CB will never be a bad set because Moon has knock/u-turn with good speed + power but it's less effective outside of sun.
All of these are less effective than the normal set and most are fringe options at best. CB is good but it's not hard to deal with.
 
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DaRotomMachine

I COULD BE BANNED!
I admire your creativity but I think you're too caught up in damage calcs and theoreticals. Like if we're going at it like this then almost every mon is versatile or unexplored. What matters is if the sets are actually consistent compared to what it normally uses. That's why I brought up Val as an example because it has a million different sets that are all strong. If Moon had common varied sets almost as powerful as tera flying acro guy then I could see your argument. It just doesn't, nothing else other than this set is discussed when people complain about Moon. And almost nothing else other than this set sees usage or results.

Dark/Fight is good coverage but not when you're relying on a 75 BP non stab move. A 3hko at +1 versus uninvested Tusk is terrible and Tusk bodies you back. You literally die to headlong after Tusk breaks sub. You could beat Gambit with this but brick break has some usage on the standard set so it's very possible they'll tera. And you're not very threatening even if you beat Gambit. I'll also point out this set loses to brave bird Corv anyway which is extremely common and increasingly more so for Ogerpon. You need multiple turns of free set up for this to be remotely threatening. Any sweeper can be scary if that's the case. Tera flying booster acro is amazing because it's so strong immediately. Doesn't need to dd to blow up shit like Tusk or can kill without tera at +1.
You're not threatening Tusk back much even if you can live 2 ice spinners. Tusk can just bulk up in your face or kill you with 2 headlongs. Moon's not tanky enough to sit there and boost all day.
Grassy seed is okay but you need Rillaboom for this to work obviously so its pretty telegraphed. Gterrain in general is only decent right now and Hawlucha is better at this. This is also basically the same set just slightly worse.
AV is a neat idea but doesn't really work. You'd still take a ton from freeze dry or draco from Kyurem even if you tera water so you're relying on your opponent clicking ice beam and the surprise tera. +2 Bulky volc tera dragon is 2hkoing even with tera water. +2 Darkrai can still kill you the turn after you tera with high rolls and you can't ohko it back. Even if you beat it that's not a good trade.
This has the same problems as your other bulky set but now you're relying too much on knock to do damage. Sub boosting 2 attack sets are better on stuff like Boulder because you have stab edgequake with tera ground so you can still hit things.
Snowball is objectively bad even as a gimmick when booster energy exists and is 100x more consistent even if very slightly weaker.
Literally every sweeper can pack a random tera blast to surprise something, this isn't unique to Moon. If you don't face Dondozo you have a useless moveslot and this can still lose to some Dozo sets. Tusk gets wrecked by the normal set anyway so this isn't very useful.
What does fire spin even trap? Super unviable, Moon is no volcanion or heatran.
HDB one isn't bad, just not great. More opportunities to come in I guess but you're way less threatening when you do. Also gets bodied by Ogerpon.
Breaking swipe is super situational and requires a lot of support to work. And unlike Gouging's set you're walled by the metal birds. Blim has used something similar but he can also beat people on high ladder with NU mons. Still it's okay.
Even with the berry, moonblast from Val or Prim is still likely to kill if there's any amount of shit on the floor. Val can still blow you up with CC too without dying to acro unless the berry is consumed. You're nerfing acro significantly if you don't get hit by moonblast or knock. Like you said very gimmicky.
Choice band Moon is good on sun but again super telegraphed. Sun really took a huge nerf after Torkoal lost yawn. I'd also rather have dual stab and a better tera. U-turn is for pivoting and there are better ways of handling Tusk than locking yourself into zen headbutt. CB will never be a bad set because Moon has knock/u-turn with good speed + power but it's less effective outside of sun.
All of these are less effective than the normal set and most are fringe options at best. CB is good but it's not hard to deal with.
All of these are supposed to be gimmicky; that's the point.
 

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